Conversation recorded & transcribed June 10th, 2024.

Tim Showalter: I just got this new fancy mic for podcasts. Oh, sick grandpa's trying out some new tech! Yeah, man, it sounds great. How is Chicago doing? I fucking miss it. 

Matt Ciarleglio: You know it's doing pretty good up here. It's finally starting to get nice outside. It was super rainy the last couple of weeks. We just started festival season and so we kind of got rained out on our first one but it's beautiful out today. 

TIM S: I grew up on the other side of Chicago, the Indiana side. I tell people in fucking LA or the Mediterranean, nothing beats that part of world in May and June. And that September-October zone. When the lake opens up! I keep not living in Chicago. I was like, “I'm gonna move to Chicago” then I just ended up in another city for like, 20 years. [laughs]

MATT C: [laughs] You're in Austin now, right?

TIM S: Yeah. I, like most musicians, I kind of go wherever my wife is. Just like, Okay, I'll move to Austin. [laughs] I love it here. It's fun.

MATT C: For sure, man. That's great. Well, thanks for taking the time to do this. Love the new record. I worked your show here in, I think it was 2015. I remember really enjoying everything that happened that night, as much of a blur as it was.

To give some perspective, I've been working at Empty Bottle for almost 15 years at this point and a few years ago became co-owner. Shortly after that, and through a series of realizations, I was like, “Holy shit, I have to get sober” [laughs]. I couldn’t sustain that life anymore and be the person I wanted to be. So, I got sober January 1st, 2023, and, you know, gradually realized, like, how important it is to bring sobriety to the forefront, especially in the music industry, because I've been a musician all my life too. And what that looks like has changed so drastically through the pandemic and through sobriety. I’m trying to build a good foundation in Chicago and build a welcoming community for people struggling with mental health, sobriety, addiction and recovery. So that's kind of where this idea for creating the series [Nothing/Assumed] came from. 

TIM S: First off, congratulations, that’s awesome news. But yeah, that's like Hell freezing over for a venue. It's literally like, “I have to stop eating sugar and I work at a candy store.” 

MATT C: [Laughs] Yeah, I feel really good about it overall. It's been a wild fucking ride for sure. I mean, it's been over a year and a half for me not drinking. My whole life has completely changed for the better in most aspects. 

TIM S: First of all, I love Empty Bottle. I'd sweep the floors at Empty Bottle. I just love the venue. I love Chicago. I am legitimately pumped to be in Chicago because I grew up maybe an hour and a half away. So it was like, the first picture I ever had of a city in my mind was Chicago, driving into the city as a kid. Jordan in the 90’s. Just the greatest time ever. I love Chicago, but when I received that email about your idea with these shows, I mean, I almost got teary eyed because I have wanted this to happen, because I stopped drinking five years ago. And to be honest, it was the beginning of an end of a chapter in my life, especially with how I approach touring. And it's never quite gotten back, that roaddog energy, it kind of changed a little bit. And shows are still my favorite thing to do. It was really tough for me the first year when I was touring.

I'm from Indiana, and it's like, it's not a culture where you just, like, complain a lot. You're like, “I'll get it done, whatever.”. But you know, it was kind of tearing me up inside, you know, being around it. I made the decision to stop. And I stopped drinking. It was the best choice I ever made. But I almost lied to myself that it wasn’t hard to do. I was like, I'm fine.

I'll go up and rock and you know, tour. I stopped drinking and literally three days later, I was on the Colbert Show with Jason Isbell, My Morning Jacket, and all these legends. And it really helped to have Jason there in particular. I just thought I could handle it. And I didn't know that it was kind of tearing me up inside. I've said this recently, but I realized, and maybe others do too, but when I was drinking I was covering up for maybe some masked-introvertedness. Like, I think I'm an introvert [laughs]. And alcohol kind of helped me walk in this extroverted robot suit.

It helped me not be in my head so much because my internal computer just never stops. I thought it allowed me to chase the muse or whatever. It took me a long time to realize that, like, you can push energy out. And it's a great thing. When I stopped drinking, I started pushing energy in. And it was this revelation of like, who am I? Like, I have no idea who I am. I haven’t been nice to myself for, like, 15, 20 years! So, I started this process of healing, I guess. 

And when it comes to shows, I think people do what they want to do. I never have an issue if there's alcohol around me or whatever. But the thought of the opportunity to have more people that are like me?  We're kind of weird, awkward animals and If I could be at a show where there's more people that maybe go into that same experience, that we can be in a room together… It's just incredible to think about. 

You know, it took me a while. I got really in my head. I put out two records that were really serious. I think it was after I stopped drinking, I got so introspective. I kept telling my wife and people, like, I don't feel fun anymore. I feel like I don't bring the party as much as I did. And I like to! Especially as a singer, you know, it's my greatest joy to just bring the party! But I felt like for a few years I was touring and I was really in my own head. But then with this new record I just laid all that shit to rest. A few years ago I was like, just stop it. You've got a finite amount of time in this life left. I started meditating. This crazy, bearded, biker dude, I discovered how to get quiet and sit with myself and find ways to bring more peace. And with this new record, instead of it becoming like a New Age chant record, it became this fucking full on opera. I was just feeling good and feeling excited and joyful. I didn't intend to write the record I just kept, like, listening to Frankie Knuckles. I'm just like, man, this is how I want to celebrate bliss.

MATT C: Fuck yeah. This record is definitely vastly different from your previous ones. And this is your eighth record, correct?

TIM S: I think so. Something like that.

MATT C: Which is, you know, pretty fucking prolific. This record sounds much different than your past albums. Miracle Focus. Tell us a little bit about the record.

TIM S: It's funny how all of this keeps tying back to the purpose of the show, the vision you had, because I spent so many years writing so many records where I was just bathed in trauma [laughs]. It was therapeutic! I'm an overshare, I think with my mouth, and that, thus becomes making songs. And I just purged myself of all this stuff in my life and these thoughts. And then I got to this place where I wrote my last record In Heaven, and I really emptied that out. Then I started painting for like, two years, didn't write any music, and I emptied more of that. I put it all on these paintings. And then when I started writing the next record, I was like, man, I feel completely free. I dealt with it. 

I finally spent time and dealt with my own soul, and kind of cleaned house. I love this quote. I totally believe in the healing and miraculous things that therapy can bring but I also I listen to Ram Dass sometimes. And he said, “Sometimes therapy is just rearranging the furniture in your prison cell.”. I felt like I had been doing that for seven records. I'm not learning how to necessarily live with it. I'm just putting it onto songs. So like, with Miracle Focus I just want to try and translate peace. I've probably isolated my entire fan base [laughs]. I just had to do this thing that was like in service to joy. I think I've collectively maybe helped people get through stuff, through my own experiences, but I felt like it was time to just go past that and be like, can we expand now? Can we then learn to dance with and not push away the darkness, but just have the darkness there?

MATT C: Fuck yeah. I think the record sounds great. And the composition of how everything pans out, it just sounds really pleasant. One thing that really struck me is that it's very digital and electronic. But it's still rooted in authenticity without it sounding synthesized. You can really hear the heart and soul even though it's very electronic which I think is pretty hard to pull off. I drive a lot and it takes me like an hour to get to work sometimes. So I listened to shit in the car and a lot of the songs are really good to listen to at night. It kind of pushes your mind in very introspective ways.

TIM S: I heard what you said about that, it's obviously very electronic. But I think the reason why it feels extremely organic to me is because I'm terrible at computers. I'm talking to you now on a 2012 laptop that I don't know how to update. I've demoed all my records on the same logic program I bought over 10 years ago. I made the whole record at my house and then we just kind of brought it to a studio to make it high-fi, but like, everything you hear on it is me literally playing it physically because I don't know how to do the programs. I don't know how to use the computer to my advantage. My friend saw me work on a Macintosh once and he's like, You do know that you're doing things so, so wrong, right? [laughs] I don’t even know how you are getting it done. But that's kind of the charm and also why the record took three years to make because I kept trying to push myself beyond my musical limitations.

MATT C: Hell yeah. Party At Monster Lake. Incredible song title. Can you explain what that song is about?

TIM S: I spent a lot of time in Los Angeles because I was on a television show. I played a character on the show Mayans M.C. It was a Sons of Anarchy spin off. And I was flying there for like two years which is why it wasn't touring for a long time. I was flying out to Los Angeles and doing the TV stuff and hanging with my co-producer and best friend Kevin [Ratterman], who lives out there.  For the first time in a very long time, I had the innocent hang of just showing each other music.

I hadn't done that since I was in college! Just people sitting around for no other reason to just turn each other on with awesome tunes. And not just tunes but ideas. I felt like I was in the Renaissance or something, it was amazing. All these collected people that would hang out, my friend Kevin calls them creatures. He loves calling people creatures and critters. I felt like we were all these lost toys hanging out. And I just wrote the song to celebrate that. Some of the songs feel like I'm living in space clouds but this one was for friends. Iit rules so much to find these people that you discover in life. That's kind of like my own internal joke because when I was writing it one late night,  I was just like, party of monsters. I feel like sometimes I'm Bill and Ted. Like 90% of my soul is Bill and Ted with just like a little bit of Ram Dass [laughs].

MATT C: [Laughs] That's a pretty good ratio. Let’s keep truckin’. I want to preface this by saying that if there's anything that you don't want to answer or aren't comfortable answering, obviously, just tell me to shut up or whatever.

TIM S: My Social Security number is…

MATT C: [Laughs] You said that you're about five years without alcohol. Is there any reason that you stopped drinking?

TIM S: Oh, man. I wrote a song about it but I had this cat that I loved. Just my best friend and he was nearing the end of his life and you have to schedule a date to say goodbye. It was so innocent.  I'll either handle this very sad day in two ways:  I'll get so smashed, you know, to deal with this. I love this kitty so much I can't be drunk. I can't celebrate this love I had with this cat by getting drunk. So I decided to not drink for those three days leading up to it and then I just didn't. I want to keep this going. It was very intentional for that situation. But I never set out to be like, I'm done. But I just love my cat so much that I feel that every day when I don't drink it's like honoring my buddy. And my own life and existence. It'll be six years in February. I just stopped. 

There's something weird with my family that we can do that because I remember my grandpa loved smoking cigarettes. One time either I was a baby or somebody was a baby and we started coughing, and my grandpa just put down the cigarette and just stopped smoking. I'm done. I went through the same turmoil I'm going through but I gotta stop. You're one year in? 

MATT C: About a year and a half. 

TIM S: Yeah, you're kind of over that initial big-time hurdle. I guess we all in our lives continue to heal, but like, it took me two or three years. First drinking stopped and the blinders came off and I could see three dimensionally for the first time in my life. But then after a few years, it just kept expanding. I was like, whoa, there is a universe out there. I feel like I was alcohol, as an inhibitor, you know, it inhibits. It’s such a scary word. If you think about it, it inhibits your being. And if you take away that you open yourself to expansion, I sound like a fucking Silverlake guru [laughs]. I've never found many things that have had more of a direct effect on my life.

MATT C: Absolutely. And I don't condone it by any means. Like I fully believe people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it's not like hurting anyone else but it's so drastically changed my life. So, how has not drinking affected your creativity? And your approach to music in general. Is this your second record writing without booze? 

TIM S: Yeah, second record without booze. This question blows my mind. When I was drinking the only word, and no offense, I love the music scene, but I was fucking emo. Impulsive and felt like I was in the passenger seat and my impulsivity and emotions were in the driver's seat and that led to some real cool songs and creative stuff, but it was kind of like formed out of chaos and that's how a record like Heal  was done. Out of pure chaos. I tapped into some kind of source when I stopped drinking. One of my favorite bands ever is Talk Talk and their last two records Spirit of Eden and [Laughing Stock], I remember Mark Hollis the singer used to say what inspired Spirit of Eden was birds migrating and water. I was like, all my records are about being angry and heartbreak and all this stuff. And when I stopped, when I made miracle focus, I literally could say that! Water, leaves and heat. It's gave me a new lease on creativity. And I am in a privileged position to be a songwriter and getting to share my emotions through that. I believe that it's a non-exclusive gift for whatever you do in life. It's like, you don't have to be an oversharing songwriter, you can just do anything. 

I had a talk with my friend who also stopped drinking, and we're about the same age. I'm 41. And I don't know if you've ever thought this, but we were dancing around the issue of, we're trying not to say that we're boring now. But we were kind of saying it and not in a negative way. Like, I'm just kind of boring now [laughs]. I don't need as much. Maybe that's aging, but also when I removed the alcohol I don't need as much.  I belong to a wildflower garden. I'm a member in Austin and that's my joy. I go there with my wife. On Saturdays. We walk around and talk to the people working there. I was like, any new flowers out? [laughs].

MATT C: That's great. That definitely resonates with me for sure. I mean, I was talking to a friend about this the other day. When I stopped drinking, I was like, you know, for 20 years, my entire social life was going to bars and drinking. And that's your social outlet, whether there was a show going on or not. 

TIM S: I know what you're feeling. I don't want to project but like, I always self therapy myself or whatever. But I have felt the same way. At first I was like, I can't fucking do this. I can't be in this place. People. I don't mind drinking but drunk is another thing. I think it’s OK if people are wasted and having a good time, but drunk..  I'm like, wow, I used to live that way every single day for such a long time. To be honest I never went to AA or anything, but this is maybe one of the only times I've ever talked in my life to someone about this stuff. I haven't had a lot of talks like this. Oh, shit. It's awesome! 

MATT C: Hell yeah, man. I think there are so many different ways for people to achieve their desired sobriety, whether it's without drugs or without alcohol. I think it's great for some people. I'm super thankful to have a few really close friends that had gotten sober before me that really helped get me out of that sort of K-hole. It's still a few and far between to be able to have these conversations. It’s awesome. Anway. How is it touring without drinking? Not all venues offer a dry greenroom or have many N/A options other than water. 

TIM S: It was just more of a realization when I stopped drinking, I was like “I’m not a very good guitar player” [laughs]. One of my issues with drinking is that I’m the kind of guy where I know what I look like. I can stand naked in front of a mirror and be like “That’s me! I dunno, that’s just fuckin’ me.” but like, my problem with drinking is I was a little too self satisfied with my own endeavors. I would leave stage and feel like Freddy Mercury at Wembley, like “That was amazing!” and then I’d see a Youtube video or something and be like “That was bad. That was not a good concert.” [laughs] and so since then it’s been improved and now I’m just chugging waters.

I don’t drink non-alcoholic beers. I already put this stuff away. I don’t need to revisit the taste. So, I drink seltzers. I love the cracking sound of the can. Down in Austin we got Topo Chico. I heard Jeff Tweedy brought Topo Chico to Chicago, isn’t that right? Topo Chico is my main thing down here. It kind of serves that purpose but the only problem with me is whether at home or at shows, I used to slam beers. I would slam like 10-15 beers before a show and just be like [thumbs up] “Good to go!” but now I slam seltzers! [laughs]. Some of them have salt content in’em so I’ll have all this sodium. I'm 41 so I’ll have to go to the bathroom 50 times before I take the stage. But the best benefit now is by the end of the set I am so hydrated. Sometimes my wife will wake up and I’ll be writing songs, hanging out late, and she'll just laugh ‘cause I’ll drinken like 12 seltzers. And they're all out on the counter like the beer used to be, just slamming through them. 

MATT C: [laughs] Yeah, it’s such a drastic change from a few empty bottles of booze and a 30 pack. 

TIM S: Yeah, exactly! I don’t know if I answered the questions and to be honest, it’s a huge amount of things. It’s like my band size is OK but I’m not on the tour bus. If I go on tour I’m still in the van. I’m 41 so I’m at this point where I don’t know if going on a 3-month tour will ever be a thing again ‘cause I like to be home with my wife and I do other work. I’m on a television show sometimes. And now, like this Summer, I was a little anxious to tour again ‘cause you know… to be honest, I don’t know if people know about me anymore! I get scared ‘cause I don’t know if people care about me or know about me, so I just wanted this Summer and this record I love so much… I literally just picked the places I love. I love so many places, but these are spots that I really love like Empty Bottle, Cactus Club in Milwaukee, 7th Street Entry, Mercury Lounge, so these places are my safe zones. I want to test this out and come back to these places that I miss so much. I’m trailing off in 1000 different degrees but that works with your vision and what we’re going is that I want to prove that I’m at the place now where I can bring the party. 

I can bring it back to that level. I’m literally going to dress like Macho Man Randy Savage ‘cause who cares?! This record is so dense I would need like 400 members to make this music. People may walk out, I don’t know, but I think it’s pretty fun. It’s such a good opportunity with you in Chicago. Let’s see if we can bring the party. I’m terrible at dancing. I’m from Indiana. 

But I will try to be dancing up there. 

MATT C:

I’ll be dancing right there with you. 

But yeah, that’s an interesting point. I feel at least for me, a lot of touring used to just be like — Alright we gotta hustle, we gotta do this whole 3-month thing knowing full well that you’re going to be partying every single night. And now it sounds like you are able to choose and be a little more selective and be like Hey, I don’t really want to tour for 3 months, I want to play the places I know I like in the cities that I like and be a little more selective about your time. I believe the last time you played at the Bottle was your Lollapalooza after show in 2015?

TIM S: OH MY GOD. I thought that was like 2018. Are you kidding? 

MATT C: Almost 9 years ago. Isn’t that crazy? 

TIM S: Ugh. Ohhhh! Time moves too fast. Oh my god. 

MATT C: Bully opened up for you at that show! They are playing a week before your show at the Bottle in July.

TIM S: I’m wearing a Bully shirt right now! It’s inside out. It’s inside out ‘cause I forgot to put it right side in… I love Bully!

MATT C: Same. So, what do you remember about that show? 

TIM S: I was hog wild. Sometimes I get so pumped, especially back then, I feel like I could eat a tree trunk. Sometimes fans are excited to meet the band but I might be the only band where people are like “..dude we gotta go” [laughs]. We have to go home! ‘Cause I would just jump off stage and hang. What’s weird is even when I was partying, my memory, it’s probably my anxiety, I have a stupidly precise memory. I specifically remember it was my favorite time I’ve ever played my song Goshen 97. It was the wildest. The fans were just having a blast. It was an incredible time in my life. I think I was so busy I took it for granted a little bit ‘cause I think like, I got to do that show and Lollapalooza which is like the festival. It was quite the Summer. I don’t know if it did it to your mind but I think the pandemic - my sense of time is so messed up now. I literally thought I did that show just a few years ago. 

MATT C: Yeah. My sense of time is completely shattered. I don’t know how it’s already been 4 years since 2020. It’s absolutely crazy. Most of the time I’m like “What day is it…?”

TIM S: Yeah, but with years! But it was such a fun Summer. I think it was Empty Bottle, but I tried to sneak in in the 90’s to see a show. I think it was At The Drive In? I also thought I played there like 15 times. That show must have been so good it was just forever forged in my memory. 

MATT C: Well shit, man. It’s a foggy memory for me but it was a great time. 

TIM S: It was a WILD night. Like, capital W wild. 

MATT C: Welp, we’re getting pretty close on time here. Is there anything else you want to say?

TIM S: I just want to thank you. I think this is a, as someone that played around a lot in this world and played shows everywhere, this is an incredibly unique and creative idea that does not exist. I was so thrilled to be a part of this night. It’s great for Chicago and it’s great for the music scene. I hope you’re here next year in Austin speaking on a panel about how this goes, ‘cause it’s cool. Come hang in my hot tub. We’ll drink Topo Chicos. 

MATT C: Oh hell yeah! Looking forward to hangout when you get here!

TIM S: It’s gonna be fun. See ya later buddy!